Liberty's screwed!

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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by Thomas Fredson » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:11 pm

Edward Fox wrote:
Thomas Fredson wrote: They live, they breathe, they eat, they sleep only for money and getting richer. This always was, is still, and forever will be...
Stop spewing platitudes like this.

P.S. If it forever will be why bother fighting?
Guess you don't even know the reality of the music industry... Nevermind, that would not change anything to the problem...

Still, things are that the loss for Movie industry is really negligible, same as software studios (Really man, Do Adobe went bankrupt because of people crackin' Photoshop or After Effects?)

I know a bunch of artist who almost give their music for free and then do a lot of gigs to promote their art and get a bit of money (still more than labels will pay you).
I, as a musician, know well this fact. I have "sold" with my band 1000 CDs, and we got nothing! No promotion (exactly, the label doesn't care a gently caress about us, as hundreds or thousands of other bands), no money, nor even a single coin for the recording of our next album! Thing is that it's the case for each "administration" who deals with both money and artits' creation. So I can surely say that they don't care about who give them money, as long as they have it.

Next thing, for sure I want money, I need to pay my bills, buy food, pay my internet connection, and my music stuff. But I don't care about gettin motherf*ckin' rich. This thing is for single-minded rockstars who live for fame and money.
For sure I "save" money when I acquire a pirated good, but hey! I think we're in states of freedom, you and I, and correct if I'm wrong, but we have the freedom of choice, and this goes into testing things before buying them. This why I use some pirated softwares, I want to know if it's exactly what I'm searching for, before paying $500+ for it. I know that one day or another, if I really use them, I'll pay for them because I need it and in my opinion, using a pirated soft WHEN you have the money to afford it, is pure THIEVERING. If you have the financial means to afford whatever you want, I'm happy for you, but this is not my case, and I have to use "alternative" ways to get things that I need (and not that I want, this where is the difference). If you still do not understand my point of view after this explanation, I will understand. You'll not be the first not to understand it...
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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by Edward Fox » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:58 pm

Allow me to point out some errors in your reasoning point by point. Nothing you said in your last post is based on objective reasoning but rather mere subjectivity.
Thomas Fredson wrote:
Still, things are that the loss for Movie industry is really negligible, same as software studios (Really man, Do Adobe went bankrupt because of people crackin' Photoshop or After Effects?)
Does this mean that piracy is acceptable so long as the product generates a profit? If piracy eats up 1% of potential profit is it wrong? 5%? 25%? 50%? 99%?
Thomas Fredson wrote:
I know a bunch of artist who almost give their music for free and then do a lot of gigs to promote their art and get a bit of money (still more than labels will pay you).
I, as a musician, know well this fact. I have "sold" with my band 1000 CDs, and we got nothing! No promotion (exactly, the label doesn't care a gently caress about us, as hundreds or thousands of other bands), no money, nor even a single coin for the recording of our next album! Thing is that it's the case for each "administration" who deals with both money and artits' creation. So I can surely say that they don't care about who give them money, as long as they have it.
If you do not care about profit being taken by piracy than why do you care about profit being taken by labels? If you hate the "administration" so much you can decide not to deal with them. If this makes it impossible to produce music than that is just tough. You are NOT entitled to be served in any way you please.

Thomas Fredson wrote: Next thing, for sure I want money, I need to pay my bills, buy food, pay my internet connection, and my music stuff. But I don't care about gettin motherf*ckin' rich. This thing is for single-minded rockstars who live for fame and money.
If you live in France and own a computer you are already "motherf*ckin' rich" compared to the rest of the global population. This point is mere rhetoric.
Thomas Fredson wrote:
For sure I "save" money when I acquire a pirated good, but hey! I think we're in states of freedom, you and I, and correct if I'm wrong, but we have the freedom of choice, and this goes into testing things before buying them. This why I use some pirated softwares, I want to know if it's exactly what I'm searching for, before paying $500+ for it.
You do NOT get to claim on what terms you commit a crime. If a manufacturer creates a product you do NOT have the right to "test" it on your own terms.
Thomas Fredson wrote:
I know that one day or another, if I really use them, I'll pay for them because I need it and in my opinion, using a pirated soft WHEN you have the money to afford it, is pure THIEVERING. If you have the financial means to afford whatever you want, I'm happy for you, but this is not my case, and I have to use "alternative" ways to get things that I need (and not that I want, this where is the difference). If you still do not understand my point of view after this explanation, I will understand. You'll not be the first not to understand it...
Again, if you live in France and own a computer you are almost certainly wealthy enough to pay for all software you use. Thus you do commit theft "pure THIEVERING" when you use pirated software. You are NOT entitled to alternative ways of acquiring goods and services, particularly when they are not commodities. You do not need software to survive.

I cannot go into a car dealership and steal a Porsche claiming that I'm just a student but one day hopefully I will be able to make a down payment. I cannot say "Well I plan to but a Porsche or a Ferrari but I'm not sure. Let me do a road test."


It seems to me that you are saying that piracy is sometimes acceptable and sometimes not. It is either one or the other.
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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by Brachy UA FREAK » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:35 pm

to point one of edward: the film industry already counts with piracy, so they actually get out quite well 8 most of the time)

point2 : no comments I'm not really into that subject

point 3 : a pc can be really cheap, i.e for less than 100€ still it is more than the average sold of african over several months.
but: being rich and being greedy in terms of a TNC is NOT compareable with the the greed of an average person ( and greed does not have to be negative). and from what thomas said, I can't see anything greed related in his post.

to the porsche example: you can make a testdrive, true you shouldn't steal it because it is worth maybe 60k-200k €, and most of its price is actually base on a real value.
Software has a high cost in developement but once its done you have very low running costs. Means after lets say 200.000 sold cds ( or the amount for a fair income for the band etc) it should set it costs instead of 17€ to 3 € .
And seriously who pays abotu 3€ for a single song ( linkinpark album i.e).

I agree partwise with you eddie, but you see it to straight from my perspective.
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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by Edward Fox » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:47 am

I do not want to sound like I have a superiority complex but the reason I see things "straight" as you put it is that I base my arguments on principal and objectivity and you do not (or so it seems).

I do not approve of greed either but in my mind "greed" is impossible to objectively define in a general sense, much less for legalistic purposes and as such has no place in a policy discussion such as this one.

Your subjectivity is the issue. How could piracy be sometimes acceptable and sometimes unacceptable? How can there be "positive" greed and "negative" greed? How do you determine greed? How do you know if it is positive? These are extremely important complications which you introduced yet have not expanded upon.
Brachy UA FREAK wrote:
point 3 : a pc can be really cheap, i.e for less than 100€ still it is more than the average sold of african over several months.
but: being rich and being greedy in terms of a TNC is NOT compearable with the the greed of an average person ( and greed does not have to be negative).
The wealth and greed of MNCs/TNCs is absolutely comparable to you and I. I am willing to guess that (judging by the level of internet literacy) almost all users of this forum are wealthier than the bottom 99% of humanity and better off than most people in the history of the world. If you are in a developed state and you dare to point to MNCs and point out their faults while not constantly sacrificing your own time and efforts you are being a hypocrite.

But you seem to get around this point by saying that there is positive greed and negative greed. What does that mean? What if I agree but I saw negative greed is non-commodity consumption thus all but the very poorest are greedy?

Your correct, the "greed" of MNCs is not comparable to that of the average person but you ARE NOT average. The average person makes $3.00 producing copra somewhere.

To go to my Porsche example you can perform a test drive only if the dealership permits it and only on their terms. You probably cannot borrow the car for a day and drive it into the mountains.

Again, I agree with you that there could be change. Software companies could release demos of their product. You may be for this position.

However you DO NOT get to access software on your own terms. You CANNOT be in the right if you are violating the rights of another party.

As a final point of your subjectivity you state that I should not steal a Porsche because most of the value is based on "real value". What does this mean. I, personally disagree with you. For me a car is a car and a small fuel-efficient one (like my Ford Fiesta) has real value. "Value" is one of the most subjective terms around. Is a Pollack paining valuable? Clearly some people think so. I think their crap.

You also speak about fair income for the band. What is fair? What is the band is very popular but difficult to handle? What is the band is not popular but is revolutionary and would revive a dying genre? Also you speak of running cost. Well a Porsche, when completed has running cost just as low as software. Once it leaves the factory the car is completed and needs no more work.

Before we proceed please stop avoiding my questions (complications you introduced).

What is greed?

What is "positive" greed?

Is piracy wrong?
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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by Xyneline » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:04 am

Edward Fox wrote: What is greed?

What is "positive" greed?

Is piracy wrong?
I agree with many of your points, Edward Fox.

Greed is not restricted to the needy or the rich. Ayn Rand makes an intriguing point in her book Atlas Shrugged by arguing that what most define as greed is actually a beneficial thing for society at large. Now, before you kick me off my host station; she means the greedy are not those who acquire wealth through political subterfuges, deception, or force, but those who strive to do their best possible effort in exchange for the best effort of others. Keyword is exchange, not giving or taking regardless of need or want: it's mutually agreed upon. In other words, innovators who reap their rewards in wealth from their work are the benefactors of society because they've submitted a good or service that the public gave a demand for, but they have not done it for charity; they've done it in exchange for something that they value, and money is a measurement of value.

Pirating is thieving because it denies the exchange of money for the benefit of the software, music, or other product. Pirating copies of Photoshop does not steal the efforts of physical labor as would stealing a work of art, but it does rob the reward from performing the mental labor that went into forming algorithms, programming, testing, debugging that are necessary to making a professional application.

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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by superbob1998 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:48 am

Edward Fox wrote:Blah blah blah.... U.S. laws, documents, rules, regulations, politics..... blah blah blah blah
I agree with some of your points, or at least some of the ones I read. I'm sorry, I just didn't want to read all of it.

tl;dr People are getting angry at other people because of money.
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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by Thomas Fredson » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:59 am

superbob1998 wrote: People are getting angry at other people because of money.
You just got the point...
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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by Edward Fox » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:29 pm

My point is that nobody is entitled to a world on their own terms.
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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by fabriciovic2 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:35 pm

The Problem with Anti-Piracy Laws,is that prohibition make Piracy gets Bigger and Bigger as a response..
The Guy from Megaupload was caught because he exposes himself too much...hanging around with cars,open champaigne bottles,you know,this is pure self-exposure..
is the world against two old men on suits trying to stop piracy,They close a site today,and the hackers start to open a zillion of download sites next day..
and btw,sopa and pipa,sopa means soup in portuguese,and pipa means Kyte,a kid s toy that flyies...

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Re: Liberty's screwed!

Post by Xyneline » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:22 am

fabriciovic2 wrote:The Problem with Anti-Piracy Laws,is that prohibition make Piracy gets Bigger and Bigger as a response..
I think this is a more concrete and manageable argument for the SOPA/PIPA debate. If you had more evidence, your claim would get stronger.
superbob1998 wrote:I agree with some of your points, or at least some of the ones I read. I'm sorry, I just didn't want to read all of it.

tl;dr People are getting angry at other people because of money.
That'd be analogous to saying people are getting angry over watching football. When fights or riots spring out, it's not the game that's the problem, it's the fan's behavior. Similarly, if someone cheats to gain money and become rich, don't attribute that person's vices to money but the individual's tactics used.

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